What a joke. The cuts need to start at 25% and go up. I am sick of this kind of propaganda. Tell me how bad it going to be and then change to well if we do this then it won’t be that bad. Show me the money. Cut it at 25% and let the chips fall where they may. I bet it will not be that bad. Look at the waste over the last 10 years, Stain glass windows

Posted by Funnyguyva (anonymous) on January 23, 2009 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, he had to go to a meeting to realize that employers were freezing wages. I guess reading the paper and thinking about the market conditions of our economy and how it impacts schools isn't something the Dr. does. How about freezing the pay AND keeping the original proposed reductions (using the word "cuts" is misleading since what we're really talking about is trimming an earlier proposed increase) in place?

Can someone tell me why class size has become such a critical focus of our schools? There are few, if any, reliable studies that show marginal increases in class size, say 24 to 26, would have any negative impact whatsoever on a student's likelihood of success. A very experienced teacher once told me that this fallacy was based on the belief that smaller class sizes allows more individual attention. If that is the case than regardless if the size of the class is 24, 26 or 3, when the teacher is paying that "individual attention" to one student, he/she is ignoring all the others. If parents want individual attention for their child they can provide it at night or can home school their children.

Posted by dbc007 (anonymous) on January 23, 2009 at 2:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Funnyguyva, your comment "Cut it at 25% and let the chips fall where they may" clearly shows that education is not your priority. I hope Loudoun residents who feel education ought to be a priority speak up before the School Board and the Board of Supervisors.

dcb007, I attended a presentation by Dr. Hatrick earlier this week and his proposed budget is an actual cut of last year's budget by more than 1% even though enrollment is up by thousands of students. It is not simply a cut in the increase. His base budget has significant cuts and the implementation of any of the tiers will seriously harm the quality of education in this county.

Class size makes a huge difference in how much time a teacher spends in "classroom management" particularly in the elementary grades. More kids in a class means more time making sure kids are where they are supposed to be and are doing what they are supposed to be doing and less time for instruction. It takes more time to grade 35 essays than 25. Children in public school today rarely get individual attention unless they misbehave or qualify for special ed. Everything is done in groups already.

Posted by charsj (anonymous) on January 23, 2009 at 5:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Charsj,
Excellent points, as always. I would also like to add that parent volunteers put in countless hours providing assistance to individual students or small groups in math and language arts in our elementary schools.

Posted by momof2 (anonymous) on January 23, 2009 at 9:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is one thing to freeze salaries, it is yet another to cut pay. When the BoE proposes:
* An increase in health care co-pays by employees for a savings of $2,570,000,
* An increase in health care deductibles for employees fora savings of $441,000;
These are de facto pay CUTS. This is an unfair level of sacrifice to ask of our school employees.
In private industry, when times are better, pay would be restored. I doubt that will happen with teacher pay.
If Loudoun wants a school system that is amongst the best in the nation, it must support the professionals who make that happen.
And by the way, dbc007, there are QUITE A FEW studies that validate the impact of class size on student achieve. Do your homework before making pseudo-factual statements about the effects of an increase of 2 children per class. Your "very experienced teacher" friend has not seen the dramatic differences in overall academic performance that many studies show. And the problem is, once the classes get bigger, it is very difficult to reduce sizes.
Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater in the budget cutting exercise. We're not talking about building a new road or a new sewer; we're talking about building our children's futures. That's worth every penny invested.

Posted by LoudounPatriot (anonymous) on January 23, 2009 at 10:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In the real world, most of us know people who are being laid off on a daily basis. In the Loudoun County school world, they feel they are above the worldwide economic crisis.
No pay raises, be greatfull you are employed. Teach one more child. Parents, education begins at home and continues at home. The government is not responsible for your childs total education. You can have the smallest class sizes but without home follow up and participation, it will mean nothing.Stop making government pay for what you should be doing. A child needs to read with the parnets. A child needs to go to museums with parents, I child needs to explore parks with parents. A child needs to have parents active in their academic education. A child does not need to explore malls and hang out.A increase of .05 children in a classroom will not impact a teacher and if it does, they need to "cowboy up". In the real world the rest of us are why not the school?

Posted by baboholly (anonymous) on January 24, 2009 at 6:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)

LoudounPatriot and charsj: Why is cutting pay/staff/benefits "unfair" in our current economy? Are you the judge of "fairness" or am I? Loudoun's spending has greatly exceeded its capacity to pay, including on its schools. Do we continue to just spend, increase taxes, issue more bonds and hope for the best? Will cutting spending cause teachers to quit? Will they go to other jurisdictions that pay more in this economy? Will increasing class size by one or two kids really harm our children. Are our children's futures in jeopardy over a 1% budget cut?

If Loudoun is able to reduce spending (cut it) and restore our county to prosperity than perhaps benefits to teachers can be increased in accordance with market forces and maybe even we can implement merit pay for the best teachers, and pay cuts for the poor teachers...now THAT would be fair.

Posted by dbc007 (anonymous) on January 24, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Some cuts are reasonable and inevitable in these economic times, but the proposed Tier 3 level, 15% budget cut goes well beyond increasing class size by half a student, increasing co-pays for doctor visits, or delaying cost of living adjustments. It's eliminating hundreds of teaching positions, closing four schools, eliminating summer school (which was never free), furlough days (school is cancelled and teachers aren't paid), eliminating 40% of the money to pay substitutes (so when a teacher is out sick, the students get warehoused in with another class for the day - talk about class size), eliminating all field trips, eliminating buses for all after school activities (including for sports teams) and many other painful cuts. The way the school system operates will be dramatically different. I expect the public education provided to the students of Loudoun County will be very different as well.

Posted by charsj (anonymous) on January 24, 2009 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

dbc007, who cares what is fair as long as your taxes go down, right? The lack of step increases and the increase and co-pays are as good as taxes on the education community. Why is it all right for teachers to suffer as long as you don't? My principal sent us an e-mail about the lack of step increases being for the common good because it helps our colleagues keep their jobs but, I have a hard time grasping that concept with people like you out there who look out for #1 all of the time. Would you please explain to me how a county like Loudoun loaded with war-profiteering defense contractors (median income of $107,000) cannot afford to keep their taxes the same but, it's ok for teachers to not only get their salaries frozen but, see an increase in the cost of benefits? This is just another example of the elitist mentality some citizens of Loudoun County have of the education system. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I am so sorry that you won't be able to buy a new Mercedes this year.
baboholly, teachers "cowboy up" as you call it everyday. Get in the classroom if you think it is so easy. Non-education professionals feel like their jobs are so much harder than ours but, don't want to "walk a mile in our shoes". Teachers do not think that they are above this economic crisis. We knew last year that our salaries would probably be frozen this year. We are making sacrifices and are thankful to have our jobs but, educators are tired of being thrown in front of bus every time there is budget crunch as if we don't do our jobs or we don't deserve to make a living.
Where would society be without us? Whether we are private or public educators, we are needed. After all, how did those of you who are making 6 figures a year in Loudoun County ever learn your professional or skills to make those salaries?

Posted by teachintom1122 (anonymous) on January 24, 2009 at 4:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Teachintom, you need to watch the paper for Loudoun home "sales." You will see that nearly every sale is to a bank. In December, out of about 50 sales, I think there was one to a name that was not a bank. The stock market has tanked, and people no longer have the savings or cushions they thought they had. Seniors are in a world of hurt, with dividends disappearing and 401K's all but gone. People are losing their jobs, can't pay their electric bills, can't pay their taxes, can't pay their mortgages, and are barely holding on. We need a tax cut. Teachers are not immune from the economy just because they work for the government. You are living in a bubble world if you think this is about not buying a new Mercedes--this is about a meltdown in our economy where we cannot afford the taxes we have been paying on falsely inflated real estate values... the first priority of the Board of Supervisors should be to stop the hurt....we need a major cut to our spending...

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on January 24, 2009 at 10:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

MANN12,

Never did I say that teachers are immune to the economic crisis because we work for the government. My point was that just because we work for the government and are paid with the tax dollars of the county doesn't mean we don't deserve to earn a living. We have had our salaries frozen and costs of benefits increased. I believe that salaries will be frozen for the next two fiscal budgets after the one we are debating. Believe me, we will be hurt plenty by this.

Posted by teachintom1122 (anonymous) on January 25, 2009 at 1:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Teachintom, there are thousands of families in Loudoun who would be grateful to have a job, any job. You need to look around a little, ask at your church. Lots of good folks, with educations, have lost their jobs, have no insurance, can't pay their bills are losing their homes, losing everything... Seniors whose retirements disappeared in the market crash... in the private sector, people are being fired right and left and those who are not fired are being paid less, a lot less, not the piddly amount we are talking about for teachers. Salaries are being slashed and people are grateful to be working. This is not an attack on teachers as a group. So stop playing victim and start being part of the solution. The school budget is out of control with white boards and all kinds of luxury and fat. If you are a teacher, help us find ways to cut the budget...

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on January 25, 2009 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

MANN12,

You asked me to be a part of the solution. My solutions would cost jobs and obviously, nobody wants that right now. The first solution would be for high school teachers to teach six classes instead of five under their current contracts. This would eliminate positions and cut down the benefits costs that county is currently incurring. Another would be the whiteboards that you mentioned at the end of your post. I personally think they are waste of money and was completely fine with an overhead projector, which I still use in some instances. The problem is the county already paid for mine so it's not going anyway. However, the county could cut funding so if they break down, they stay that way. It is really not that hard to make a transparency. Third, eliminate one of the three librarian positions in the high school. Two librarians and an assistant are enough. Fourth, eliminate content supervisors at the administration office. These are individuals who pass down mandates even though they have no real clue whether they work besides the hallowed "research". The impact of their work is never really felt in the classroom other than when we have to give benchmark tests and quite frankly, we test our students enough. Fifth, cut field trip spending by 75% and make a teacher go through a review process to get it done. In high schools, most field trips are for elective classes and they always end up being frivolous. I would give examples of the frivolity but, I don't really want to throw anyone under the bus. Sixth, textbooks should be eliminated. Most teachers use outside sources for teaching instead of the horrible and outdated textbooks we currently have. Seventh, cut the school calendar down. It will save the county on energy bills. If we do not use our snow days or all of the time we log with the extra 18 minutes on at the end of the day, put in place a plan that makes our calendar amendable at the end of the year based on these conditions. Finally, $25 athletic fees are manageable. I know most people in the Loudoun County consider this a part of the public education package but, I don't. They are extracurricular. The word extra is there for a reason. What do you think, MANN12? Do you think these are logical?

Posted by teachintom1122 (anonymous) on January 25, 2009 at 10:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

teachintom,
I think these are good suggestions. I am sure there many more reasonable ways to cut our school budget, if the School Board is honest and serious. Thank you for your thoughts.

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on January 25, 2009 at 4:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)