Bravo! All the above plus add in the third party estimate of $3.5 million of annual tax revenue and I see no way this wonderful addition to our neighborhood and County can be turned down.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'll be glad to see the BOS extend the welcome signs to this $3.5 MIL coffer filler.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Supposedly all it would take, and all it would ever have taken, for them to move this to the land they own on Route 50, is filling out a one-page form. They would be compliant with the Comp Plan, and could have moved forward some time ago.

This will be interesting.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Supposedly Ms Munsey - you don't have a clue what a COPN is and why no one can build on Route 50 until Richmond decides there are enough people there. And right now there aren't the numbers to support a hospital - according to them. I know it's hard for you to believe that Richmond dictates where this hospital will go, but they did. They look at the numbers, the populations, the mileage, and they chose. And if you didn't like the location, the opportunity to speak up was years ago. Basically, they decide where every hospital in Virginia is built. Yes, even Inova has to listen to them.

The former Board of Supervisors in their puffed up arrogance and need for another power trip, thought they could make up the health care map, because they were so powerful and mighty and all that. So sorry folks. It doesn't work that way.

Your statement that all it would take is filling out a one page form to move to Rt 50, may be the most uniformed thing you have ever said.

Posted by PerfectTiming (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 7:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I would rather take the hospital which is a "known" than what they'll put there if it's shot down. Wal-mart(not that I hate them just don't care to have THAT kind of traffic) or fill in the blanks to any other kind of facility/store you can think of that could be a lot worse. I have also heard that they will eventually build the hospital on route 50 when the population supports it.

Posted by chelsivia (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I thought Judge Horne ruled that the State could not decide where the hospital went, that this was the sole responsibility of the County? Wasn't that the ruling of the Court?

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 7:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

PerfectTiming, BRMC has already had extensions of this COPN (the current one is running out), and by checking a different box on the same form, they can indicate the need to move the location within the same locality.

MANN12 is correct. Remember, we had this conversation before? The state cannot tell the locality what to do with their land use.

Richmond dictates by service area. The jurisdictions within the service area dictate within their own borders.

Glascock Field, the little runway at the NW corner of 659 and 50, is grandfathered as an airfield. Could this solve the heliport issue?

Maybe you should do a little research before venting your own uninformed spleen (pardon me, but that's what it sounds like).

When HCA renews this COPN (again), why not select a location change?

In addition, PerfectTiming, this is a REGIONAL hospital, remember? Immediately adjoining population is not the main issue, is it? (Particularly when the county can consider the VISUAL impact of a tower reason enough to deny a business application.)

Please do inform yourself. Unless, of course, all I did was strike a nerve.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 9:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Once we post the EXACT location for a new hospital on Rt 50, any takers on the size and scope of the INOVA public relations battle to oppose THAT location?
What is being overlooked here is that INOVA doesn't want competition in Loudoun County ...period. Not to mention the residents of that next location being paraded out to oppose HCA in similar fashion as what we saw this round.
Add to that the close association of two members of the INOVA Board -- John Ryan (son Jack ran against Waters) and Larry Beerman (Barbara replaced him when the heat got turned up)to then-sitting BOS members Snow and Tulloch. That's the Good 'Ol Boy's Network defined. Can one blame HCA for working with someone new to try to get around the blatant and nefarious nepotism of the past Board's majority?
And I'm a little dissappointed to see such a weak argument about the business attitude in the County, as interpreted by some that I wouldn't let analyze a household budget after seeing some of the misguided (misinforming??)references to the tax situation in the County.The only part of that reference that had a tiny bit of truth attached to it was that Loudoun is indeed one of the farthest commutes from DC, and in a time when fuel is running as high as $3.40 a gallon, companies might look at localities that are closer to the metro area for their location.It's a logistics decision, not one that has anything to do with our tax structure. Even if one tried to argue that point, they'd look like a jackass, having argued that HHMI is getting a tax break on their "green" building --because at that exact moment, they'd be talking out of both sides of their mouth.
Sometimes we need to look at the actual words instead of the acronyms. Certificate Of Public Need. Who issues these? Damned right. The State of Virginia.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 9:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow, Dean, you've got some exposed nerves too.

I looked up the form, and it IS more than one page, but not much.

http://www.vdh.state.va.us/OLC/forms/doc...

That links to the document on the Virginia Department of Health site entitled "Request For Extension or Significant Change, Request For a Certificate of Public Need (Chapter 4, Article 1:1 of Titile 32.1, Sections 32.1-102.1 Through 32.1-102.12 of The Code Of Virginia Of 1950, As Amended)"

Please see III, B second box: Site Change

Please see also VI, A, 2. under Demonstration of Progress: Date that the site meets all zoning and land use requirements

That's been blank from day one.

Dean, this isn't about most of the stuff you are ranting about (which may be why you're ranting)

You seem to be unaware that both Inova and HCA own suitable parcels on Route 50 (Inova has all of its land use approvals on their site, by the way).

By your statement that this is a "logistics decision, not one that has anything to do with our tax structure" are you hereby negating your multiple posts on how HCA must be approved because it will bring in tax revenue? They can pay taxes from Route 50 too.

Yes, the state issues Certificates of Public Need for service areas, and to plow the same row again, localities have control over their own land use, and THAT'S damned straight.

Lee may have your number after all: this seems to be all about attacking Inova for political reasons.

Is it because your Board voted to do-over a land use application for a contributor in contravention of their campaign rhetoric, and that by their own "ethics" Mr. York should recuse himself from any vote on this?

York's Posse rides again!

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 10:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

p.s., Dean? The Health Systems Agency of Northern Virginia is on the form too, under State Planning Agencies.

That's the outfit the Mr. Dean Montgomery works for, that you and Glenn threatened Donna Fortier with "exposing" some shadow conspiracy involving Inova.

State. Health. Planning. Agency.

NOT Inova/CPR/(insert strawman here)

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 3, 2008 at 10:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Barb-
I think you are referring to the application form. If a new location where to be selected, there would have to be a new hearing process to get a new location approved. By doing so, I believe the entire COPN approval would be reopened. This could jeopardize their existing approval...something Inova would love.

Posted by shevco (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Funny how it is ok with Honcho and (York's) crew for Ms. Waters to oppose the hospital (thinking about her political survival?) and of course, no one will question Mr. Burton, but who cares if it is political suicide for Stevens Miller--he's not in the "in crowd"? Everyone knows Burton and Waters cannot vote for this hospital, so they get a pass. Miller is being set up big time, and if he votes for this hospital, the "in crowd" will have no problem saying adios to him the next election with the public backlash (they don't like him any way)...and after the hospital is built, it will be decades of moaning about XYZ issues that he (and the Democrats) allowed to happen there, and what if a helipad does go in there at some point? how will they stop it if the COPN says it is needed? and there is already a hospital on the site? I wish you luck with this crowd, Mr. Miller.

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ms. Munsey, as always you appear to be such an expert, but alas honcho points out a critical factor: Inova will roll out its machine on HCA if they moved to Rt. 50 especially since Inova owns property right next door and already has approval for a medical center there from this Board. Why would they cede Rt. 50 so easily?

Another important question for you: why do you care so much? You don't live in Broadlands - neither does Lee for that matter.

Oh and stop with the helipad. Read the article above, they have been saying no helicopter pad for years, yet the so-called concerned citizens put a helicopter on the front of their scare-piece they mailed and you guys want to perpetuate the falsehood. And last time I checked Inova Loudoun has a helipad and they abut hundreds of homes, but its okay there.

Posted by playingketchup (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 9:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Already arguing that INOVA has a helipad..... hmmm.

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Cliff, that is the same form HCA has had to file (several times) already to get the extensions they have needed on their existing COPN.

The previous planning commission, when recommending denial (BEFORE I was appointed), offered to work with HCA to find a suitable location closer to or on 50. They could have moved any time.

They now have property on 50, as does Inova.

Ketchup, only two people from this area have spoken against the hospital at Board meetings so far, and one is a Campaign for the Future Miller appointee from down on Braddock Road. They, without mentioning their spouse who is a physician with offices in Reston, said "we" didn't need a hospital on 50 because "it would be too much healthcare, just like we have too much retail".

No one asked this person about any affiliations, although I did see Mr. Miller ask anti-Broadlands-location people if they worked for Inova (legitimate question. However, it was Mrs. Waters who asked the legitimate follow-up--do they live in Loudoun. Living and working in the county fulfills the spirit of the Comp Plan, eh?)

Kethcup, as I said to Perfect, if this is a REGIONAL hospital, it isn't just about Broadlands in terms of service area. That neighborhood WILL absorb the impact (which is MUCH greater than the view of a cell tower, for instance).

As to the helipad, I agree that the impact on Broadlands will be intensified with a helipad. I also feel that any "full service" hospital includes one in this day and age, particularly with our abysmal road network.

Lee is correct there too. Once the hospital is approved and in place, there is nothing to stop them from seeking additional approvals.

Inova Loudoun was built on raw land, preceding any Lansdowne homes, which also describes the parcels owned by BOTH Inova and HCA on 50. The Broadlands site had existing homes in proximity when Mr. York had his press conference to announce the "done deal" two Boards ago.

Make it as political as you like. The main politics I see here is the fact no one wants to address: this goes against campaign promises, and York should recuse himself.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Nothing but fear tactics on the helipad...
You are correct, this is for ALL of Loudoun County and we need a larger commercial base as the Loudoun Times said this week (http://www.loudountimes.com/news/2008/ap...)
and we need more health care here. Seems to me pretty simple and straightforward.

Posted by playingketchup (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ketchup, fear tactics? What else are the HCA ads (every bit as ubiquitous and costly-looking as Inova's) playing with? "Minutes count"? Yes, and a helipad (particularly for trauma) makes the most of minutes for a much wider variety of people than BRMC will in one area.

Maybe they should remove the "R"?

A full service hospital should have a helipad. We have a lousy transportation network.

It seems pretty simple and straightforward to me too.

HCA and Inova both own raw land adjoining utilities on 50. HCA could have moved their COPN there any time they extended (during their active suits).

HCA can still seek to move at their next extension (which they will probably need to file before this new application gets through the approval process, unless it is simply rubberstamped at all levels--probably not wise after all the campaign rhetoric about making deals for contributors).

Inova chose to get their land use in order before filing for a COPN on 50. HCA is in process for their land use there, and indications were (when THIS board approved the Inova application) that they would be receptive to approving HCA's as well.

Simple.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 12:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is a lot of information available to refute Inova's continued claim that Ashburn is not a good location for a hospital. The main argument used against BRMC is that it is too close to Inova and that it should be down on Rt 50. Inova supporters, like Barbara, have tried to justify the need on Rt 50 by counting roof tops; Lee has tried to measure the need by some obscure look at school board data; neither fit the bill as they are either irrelevant, or unrelated to actual medical needs. To get closer to real "medical need" statistics a little birdy forwarded me a FOIA. The FOIA request was made for statistics on Rescue Squad (EMS)calls in the County broken down by individual Rescue Squad Companies. These numbers relate to actual medical needs and provide the most accurate statistics I've seen. Facts that are proving that there is over twice the need for services in the Ashburn area when compared to the Rt 50 area. Additionally, it is projected to be this way for quite some time. Here are some of the numbers.
.
Ashburn (Co 6, Co 23) EMS call volume
2007 - 3699
2008 Projected - 3567
2013 Projected - 4635
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Aldie, Arcola and Dulles Safety Center (Co 7, 9, and 19) EMS call volume
2007 - 1734
2008 Projected - 1547
2013 Projected - 1931
.
This data includes EMS responses through February 5, 2008, and was provided by Loudoun County Fire and Rescue. As stated in the report, "The data provided for FY2008 thru FY2013 are projections based upon previously established trends."
.
Clearly, the Ashburn area has over twice the medical/emergency needs of Rt. 50. No wonder neither HCA or INOVA is ready to build a hospital on Rt 50.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 2:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, reading this prompts two questions from me:

1: What is the service area of these companies, and do they contain any factors other than standard neighborhood, i.e., who handles Dulles Airport (I know 19 did hazmat response when it was the tent, whether they still do I don't know), who responds to Leisure World, etc.

As you go further out past 15, you have a lot of VFDs in the towns and villages--what is their call volume?

2: It reads a little bit like the beds-per-capita data that you posted everywhere when the lawsuit was set aside, and I found that a little misleading: Beds are allocated to a service area. Hospitals are located within counties, cities, towns. Loudoun only has one hospital building with beds in it, so of course we have fewer beds per capita than Fairfax. However, let's say someone lives in a Sterling zipcode, between Inova Loudoun and HCA Reston. If they live on the Loudoun side of the county line, they are UNDERserved. If they live on the Fairfax side, they are not? They are still in the same house between two hospitals.

Glenn, as a side comment, I'd be really leery of looking like you're saying "Ashburn has more sick people so we need more hospitals".

Can you get the additional data I asked for from your "little birdy", or is the FOIA posted on their website?

No response on the ability to have moved the COPN some time ago, rather than go to court?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I love the hospital threads. They crack me up. Lee, one thing-I can NEVER get to Reston hospital in 15 minutes from Ashburn-EVER, even at 3am, even paying Greenway tolls. And 12 minutes to route 50 from here? Maybe in my helicopter...

Posted by qazwsxedcrfv (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lee, I got it from about 29 of your posts on numerous blogs. Please don't pull a Hillary-Bosnia-sniper-fire claim.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 4:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Barbara, your first question is a reasonable one. The report is provided in an excel spreadsheet with about seven tabs of data, many charts, and many tables. It does breakdown the calls into BLS v ALS. Does anyone know what that may refer too? I do not know what the acronyms stand for. I try and look at the data closer as related to your question.
.
As for your question about Dulles Airport or Leisure World, I am not sure. Someone on this Board should be able to answer that question. For Leisure World I would guess the area is covered by Co 6 or Co 23. Dulles Airport has a fire and rescue company on site. As for back-up service from Loudoun my guess would be it is either, Arcola or Dulles Safety Center. It's a good question.
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I am not aware of the FOIA being posted anywhere.
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As for your last question. Why should they move the COPN? The need is in the Ashburn area. HCA owns a great piece of land in an excellent location that they want to develop. HCA is in this business to make a profit and I assume their market studies prove that their investment will be a sound one.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 4:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lee, since you seem to be taking Supervisor Delgaudio's lead by questioning the tax exemption status of Orbital and Howard Hughes Medical Center...(I like bundling you with him) How in the heck can you so boldly back INOVA and their credibility when they pay even less takes then Orbital and HHMC combined? INOVA Loudoun pays zero taxes on something like $181,000,000 in revenues.
.
Sounds hypocritical to me.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There is some real prevarication going on here.

According to the Loudoun County Department of Planning as of 4:45 pm today, there is no Broadlands HCA Hospital application filed.

Something is funny going on here.

Maybe the PR spin folks with HCA should coordinate things better with their attorneys.

Posted by jill4x (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, BLS v ALS seems to mean Basic Life Support vs Advanced Life Support.

I would imagine that could be affected by age-restricted communities, or industrial sites, or the airport too.

It was your teaser about a little birdy that made me wonder if it was available online. There are pro and anti hospital sites, including the hospital company sites themselves.

Glenn, I don't know if it's a benefit to the discussion, after so many posts over the past few years about profit vs. not-for, who cares more vs who is evil, etc to switch from "we are sicker" to "they'll make more money" so quickly.

My opinion remains that putting another one in Ashburn will be the last one the county sees for a long time to come, and a few minutes closer than the one in north Ashburn doesn't do that much for anyone else in the county. Your position seems to be malleable (except in the sense that you want it there and only there).

I'd be interested to see a further breakdown of the data, and a link to the report itself if possible.

Thanks.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Van Armstrong with the county planning department confirmed that HCA did submit the BRMC material yesterday.
~erica

Posted by EricaGarman (Erica Garman) on April 4, 2008 at 5:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh my, maybe we have another chapter for the Barbara Conspiracy Chronicals? I would guess there is a process that the County Planning Department goes through to "accept" the application before it becomes officially accepted. I would bet the provocation is coming from jill4x's or her source not from an well circulated press release from HCA.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, I'm treating your new information with respect and discussing it with you courteously. If you're going to revert to type and start gameplaying, I'll be happy to dismiss your (supposed) spreadsheet as a talking point sent by HCA, and refuse to accept it until you link to the county document that contains the info.

Why go there?

Which shall it be? Discussion, or the Maravetz Follies?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

BLS is Basic Life Support. For example it could be an expectant mother being transported to a hospital, or a football player who could have broken his leg. ALS is Advance Life Support, means a direct line or some other life support system has been applied to the patient. Both types require medical care, so I am not sure if the difference is relevant to this discussion. The numbers aggregately reflect the market for healthcare.
.
BTW, who said I switch from one argument to another. The non-profit=no tax argument, the location argument, and the larger population/need argument are all still very valid. Inova can't accept any of this because it would threaten their monopoly. Hence, the intractability to accept facts or logic. Just my opinion.
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I do not have a link to the data, as it is not available on line. At least not that I know of.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lighten up Barbara, this gets dull without a little fun.
.
Back to the facts, this isn't data that is directly available from the County. At least not that I know of, otherwise, the FOIA wouldn't have been required. It was paid for as a FOIA, therefore, submitted to the customer as an individual report. I do think some annual data is release to the public related to this type of information, but this was more real-time and inclusive. The individual didn't want to wait until the end of the year. That's my guess.
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I see you are already teeing this up as being some HCA created document. Go ahead dig a little further if you want. I can assure you this was completely done without HCA's involvement or request. It was a private citizen request.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Being a reporter for the Washington Post does help in terms of getting information. This is from a regular citizen who has filed 4 FOIA lawsuits, 3 still pending, in the courts...seeking information from FOIA's filed in 2006, still no responses.

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks for getting back to discussion.

We seem to be talking about market now, which means you are still in Inova vs. HCA mode. (which is a marginally better argument than Ashburn vs. South Riding, also played on occasion)

I think people who support a hospital on 50 would support it being built by either entity.

If it is county data, it is probably available online, but not necessarily in your spreadsheet form, which may have been created for whoever FOIAed it.

They break it down for a reason, and it would be interesting to see the breakdown. ALS responding to a cardiac victim is more reliant on the "golden hour" than a simple fracture, so it might indeed have a bearing on the location argument.

What are the BLS/ALS numbers by company?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It seems we cross-posted.

Glenn, as someone who frequently annoys people by having a sense of humor, I see the benefit in lightening up on occasion.

But if you are going to be Gameplaying Glenn the Posse-Boy in the middle of a serious discussion about actual data instead of opinion, you bet I'm going to shoot back.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jill4x, seems the HCA PR team and their attorneys are more on the same page than you and your Inova contacts.

Posted by playingketchup (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Give me sometime to work those numbers up. As for now I am heading up to Clyde's for happy hour feel free to join us. First one is on me, the next $1,000 of beer is on Lee. (inside blog joke)

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 5:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No thanks Glenn, but thanks for the offer.

Kethcup, it is entirely plausible that Jill4x called the department and received that answer.

Funny story, but true (and can be verified by watching the webcast of the public hearing):

When the Inova rte 50 application came to hearing at the PC, there was another item on the agneda for a portion of Stone Ridge by Van Metre, adjacent to the Inova property.

The Van Metre application (Glascock), contained a parcel that Van Metre had sold to HCA, and included a hospice that had been advertised as a "hospital use" because hospice is not defined in the Zoning Ordinance.

The applications came up near midnight or so, we had already suspended the rules.

There was already some confusion in input we had received, because of the way Glascock had been advertised--people though dueling hospitals were on the agenda. I had confirmed with senior staff the business day before the hearing that no hospital application had been filed by HCA for any of their parcels on 50 yet.

Ms. Descutner and other HCA employees arrived sometime after 11 to view the application hearings.

At 1 a.m., it became apparent from Kevin Ruedisueli's questions to the applicant that he thought HCA had in fact filed an application.

I asked the senior planning staffer present whether an application had been filed before the start of the hearing, since we had last spoken. At 1:15 a.m., while he was shaking his head "no", and Kevin was saying "but that's not true", a planner stood up in the audience and said yes one had been filed but they had forgotten to enter it yet.

So yes, things do happen.

Ketchup, do you know Jill4x personally? She may be a citizen just calling the main planning number and not Inova secret agent #314.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

LOL, no Barbara I don't know Jill4x from Adam, but I don't care if she's Agent 99 (http://getsmartmovie.warnerbros.com/), I think its hilarious either way: she's calling or Inova's calling planning. I guess I can't say "get a life" since I am blogging here on a Friday night about this still!

Posted by playingketchup (anonymous) on April 4, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Barb, you just added to my content by offering the previos Planning Commissioner from Dulles was actually sitting on the PC passing judgement over HCA applications when he was already pulling a Fortier by being cozy with INOVA.
They even provided him with a soft landing after he left the PC.
And the "logistics" portion of my comment went towards companies settling over closer to DC's Metro area, than out here. It had ZERO to do with any hospital dialogue.
It went more to attracting Commercial offices out here.The more they deal with the Metro area, the closer they want to be.
And another poster made my point. INOVA may have a piece of land out there, but wait till HCA tries to build on theirs. We'll all see INOVA pull out all the stops AGAIN. They want the whole County, and do not mind spending all of that tax-free windfall to do it.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 5, 2008 at 7:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Dean, first the little one: another poster didn't MAKE your point, he quoted yours. To which I replied that one of only two who have spoken against it so far from down here has a medical spouse from Reston and is a Miller appointee.

Now for the big one. Your chronology is out of whack--Larry Beerman was on the Loudoun Hospital Board before he was on the Planning Commission, which was why he recused himself from the whole healthcare CPAM, and I may be wrong but possibly the BRMC application too. I attended some of the Healthcare CPAM hearings, and when the item was called on the agenda, he stated his affiliation with Loudoun Hospital, handed over the gavel to the Vice Chair and LEFT THE ROOM.

Which is what York should do on the HCA application.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 5, 2008 at 10:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I was unaware that York actually sat on any HCA board. I know it was a RUMOR (and we all wonder who started that one)that he was going to work for HCA, when ACTUALLY,nothing could be further from the truth.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 6, 2008 at 8:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

yes, but he did receive $3,000 directly from HCA's PAC in 2003 and should thus recuse himself.

Posted by rez51 (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dean, remember the campaign literature, the "ethics" discussion, the amazing invisible definite indictments?

They all had to do with voting on land use involving contributors.

Rez51 is right, and York has received donations and campaign work from the Descutners as well (speaking of which, did Mr. Miller appoint Mr. Descutner to a county advisory position? Heard it, haven't confirmed it).

Given his long personal relationship with the company and some of its employees, YES he should recuse himself (like Larry did).

And as I recall, you posted on another blog that York was going to take a job there, and when I asked you about it you said you were joking. So I guess it started over at tc, with a lot of other rumors (where ARE those indictments?).

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Barbara, you need to learn to read, first off. You cannot state things as fact because you wish they were true. The WHOLE context of what I typed was that York was taking a job with HCA, JUST AS SOON AS THEY TAUGHT HIM HOW TO APPLY BANDAIDS. The humor was apparent, and I assure you that everyone else saw it, but obviously you missed it.
And what of the Descutners involvement in committees where they have expertise? How long was Beerman involved in medicine before he went to work for INOVA, on their Board of Directors? Megan DeScutner has spent a lifetime in medicine from being a nurse, to being a volunteer on the County Commision to study healthcare in Loudoun back in the early 90's. It's kinda like the Democrats having a cow when we wantede to talk to folks who KNEW about energy initiatives, so we talked to the Energy Companies. GASP!!!!! Why does everyone connected to INOVA feel like it's perfectly fine to trash that kind of selfless dedication to her fellow citizens? She didn't NEED to step up to serve on the Healthcare Taskforce...she volunteered to make a difference, long before this showdown was even on the horizon. Lee and even you are referencing appointments from two Boards ago as if they are recent history. That is what I call "reaching".It's what people do when they're out of arguments.
Lee, I have an appointment to the Agricultural Advisory Committee. Do you want to trash me for being a voice in the representation of the farm communities in Loudoun?? Where do the misdirection and attacks on community service stop?
Where does the trashing of good people who step up to the plate to make a difference in Loudoun stop? This is about taking it in the direction that gives Loudoun citizens better choices and even adds money to the County coffer that isn't being paid right now by an existing entity that made $181 MIL last year, and did not pay a dime in taxes, but has spent quite a bit of money to stop their competition.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"HCA is coming. All you have to do now is accept that.
- 10 feet tall and Bulletproof

#
March 3, 2008 at 3:08 am

And you know what I heard, Lee? Scott York is going to be working for HCA!!!!!!!!
They are going to give him a quick tutorial on applying band-aids to patients.
I suppose that you oppose actual oil companies and electric companies meeting with the President to address energy concerns and alternative power ideas, huh? You know, since they’re the “experts” on those types of matters, it sure does look fishy.
- 10 feet tall and Bulletproof"

Dean, I always find it interesting when people who write poorly criticize others for not being able to read (into) what they wrote. So, there are the words. The "context" seems to be somewhat mutable.

You seem to spend a great deal of time threatening people who do not take your word as gospel, so I asked you about it. You then stated it was humor.

Now for your rant on Mrs. Descutner: I was asking about my supervisor in Dulles appointing her husband MR. Descutner to a county committee. Lee, it looks like he made the motion, but that doesn't necessarily mean he made that particular nomination. Now I know where to look though, so thanks.

Dean, you sound very funny asking for attacks (questions) about public service to stop (Leave Britney alone!) after all the attacks you participated in--have your top secret buddies told you why those indictments are so long overdue? I thought they were coming out before Christmas?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 7:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's where I find the ultimate irony.
For those that feel there needs to be more healthcare on RTE 50: You should be THANKING HCA for BRMC. After all, if BRMC was not proposed there would be no one talking about medical facilities on RTE 50. If not for BRMC, Inova would be proposing nothing. If not for BRMC causing Inova to propose facilities on RTE 50, HCA probably would not be there.
Thanks to BRMC, there are now TWO proposals for significant healthcare facilities on RTE 50.

Posted by shevco (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 8:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bravo, Shevco! That's what competition does. Now spread that concept to other competing services, like heart, cancer, pediatrics, emergency, mental health, etc, etc. and you now can start see how it's VITALLY important to get HCA into the community. It helps Inova, HCA and the community.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 9:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Cliff, that may or may not be true.

Do a field hospital overlay on the county, and you'd basically have the original healthcare CPAM map.

Glenn, done those spreadsheet numbers yet?

I'm looking forward to your analysis.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 10:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

EXACTLY what you quoted...although I didn't have the time or the effort to search for it.

"They are going to GIVE HIM A QUICK TUTORIAL ON APPLYING BAND-AIDS TO PATIENTS".
That was the exact context of the exact comment, researched and posted by you. And you do not see the humor there. You have problems.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 10:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

B, haven't had a chance. I'll try and get to it over the next couple of days. If you get impatient, check with your favorite BOS member, they all have the entire report, in fact, I think a couple have forwarded the report to their PC members. That may be another source.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 10:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay Glenn, thanks. I'll try those avenues, and I do hope you get the chance--I'd hate to think it was a great teaser for a subject change and not a good meaty addition to discussion.

Dean, Yes, that's what I quoted both times. That is the content of the post. You are supplying context.

I find you funny sometimes, but apparently not always when you mean to be.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 7, 2008 at 11:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, glad to see that you've run the numbers and posted them.

(....deafening silence....)

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 13, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I was out of town last week. Still catching up. Any luck getting a copy from your Supervisor or the PC? Glad to see you're still interested in the relevance of the data. I too think it's very eye opening as to where the need is today and over the next couple of years.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at noon (Suggest removal)

Glenn, I doubt I'll be asking my supervisor--people had to pull teeth to try to get a meeting down here over the budget, schools or rec, so I don't want to waste my time or his on this issue when he's got people in his own neighborhood wanting to get with him on it. I talk to a couple of the PC folks, so that is most likely where I'd ask.

I can't say whether the data is eye-opening or not, you haven't posted but one piece of it, and that not necessarily in context.

I keep coming back to the BLS/ALS breakout, and the HCA ad about the broken arm at the football game: if a significant percentage of the calls around your immediate neighborhood are non life threatening in comparison to call volume from less accessible areas, or if your neighborhood shares coverage with a high call volume generator, what you may be seeking for your own peace of mind is additional urgent care rather than a duplicate hospital.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Alright Barbara, don't ever say I didn't do you a favor. Here is the breakdown you requested.
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Ashburn (Co 6, Co 23) EMS call volume
2007 - 3699 (ALS=2392; BLS=1307)
2008 Projected - 3567 (ALS=2219; BLS=1347)
2013 Projected - 4635 (ALS=2924; BLS=1711)
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Aldie, Arcola and Dulles Safety Center (Co 7, 9, and 19) EMS call volume
2007 - 1734 (ALS=963; BLS=771)
2008 Projected - 1547 (ALS=924; BLS=623)
2013 Projected - 1931 (ALS=1173; BLS=758)
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This data includes EMS responses through February 5, 2008, and was provided by Loudoun County Fire and Rescue. As stated in the report, "The data provided for FY2008 thru FY2013 are projections based upon previously established trends."
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The facts prove that the majority of the health emergencies require advanced life support, emergencies that most likely end up at a true hospital and not an urgent care facility. A quick math calculation of this data shows that over 60% of the emergencies require ALS. Don't forget the BLS cases end up at a hospital too.
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Barbara, thank you for asking me to look deeper in to the numbers. This additional data confirms and strengths my original conclusions. Clearly, the Ashburn area has over twice the medical/emergency needs of Rt. 50. No wonder neither HCA or INOVA is ready to build a hospital on Rt 50.
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The market need is driving the location of our next hospital. Broadlands is the right location. This exercise in true facts is but another example of why reality supports it.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at 3:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Additional thoughts on the data:
.
As a percentage, 65% of Ashburn's calls are ALS (Advanced Life Support), while only 56% of the Rt 50 corridor's calls are ALS. Plus, when you look at just the ALS numbers - Rt 50 represents 40% of total volume. Route 50 only had 963 ALS calls, compared to Ashburn's 2392.
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Sadly, it appears Ashburn has more cardiac patients than does the Rt 50 corridor, meaning Ashburn has a greater need for a full service hospital and the Rt. 50 broken bones can be handled nicely by an urgent care center.
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Pretty "meaty" isn't it? Barbara, I agree with you. When you take the politics out of the analysis and deal with, facts and data, the decision is much easier. Any other ideas on how this data can help determine reality? The report is choke full of other charts and graphs. I'll try and respond quicker next time, that is if my real job doesn't overtake my time again.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, thank you for putting up some more of the data.

Are all the ALS calls cardiac, or is that an additional breakout number you could post?

In addition, you were going to see what was in the service area of the 5 companies you are referencing, i.e. Leisure World, airport, industrial etc.

Glenn, in trying to make this about Ashburn vs South Riding, you are again forgetting about the other companies that answer calls all over the county. Stone Ridge, South Riding and Arcola are not the whole "route 50 corridor", and that does little to address the entire western county. In addition, Ashburn is only one part of northeastern Loudoun.

I think you do your "my neighborhood and mine only" argument little additional good by framing it that way.

Don't get sniffy about your "real job", Glenn. You have plenty of time to blog all over creation when you have an axe to grind.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Western Loudoun is going to be fine. INOVA's finally building "our" facilities. Once HCA prodded them in the rear.

Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at 11:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Barbara, it doesn't break it down further than ASL or BLS. I already gave you my thoughts on Leisure World, etc.
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Which EMS companies would you add? I am satisfied with the quality of the data and the breakdown. It's ridiculous to stretch the analysis to the entire western county. Destinations west will be able to get to Broadlands as easy as an east Rt 50 location.
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Now if you want to go ahead and admit you are not happy with the magnitude of these numbers, as related to your personal interest in getting a hospital in your neighborhood, I'd be glad to hear you say it. I am not going to hold my breath. Your effort to skew the analysis is impressive, but not germain. I do appreciate that you have dropped the integrity attack on the report.
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The data, including the ALS and BLS numbers are compelling. It really has very little to do with whose neighborhood it is. It has to due with who amongst our neighbors are using emergency medical services more than others. In this analysis a overwhelming majority of the need identifies Broadlands/Ashburn as the area of need.
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This shouldn't be a surprise, neither Inova nor HCA are willing to build a hospital, like BRMC, on the Rt 50 corridor. I am sure they have other marketing metrics but the EMS numbers support their publicly stated strategy. The need, market and population all support a hospital in Broadlands/Ashburn, and not along the Rt 50 cooridor.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 14, 2008 at 11:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, I thought you were going to ascertain whether Leisure World, etc were in the call boundaries. I was unaware we had drifted back into your opinion.

The few numbers you have posted are a piece of the puzzle, and a small one. What percentage of the entire county calls are coming from the two companies in Ashburn that you are solely referencing as incontrovertible proof?

As I said, to say that Ashburn has more calls than South Riding is not sufficiently compelling data (except possibly for York's Posse) to say that the only other hospital in the county belongs in your neighborhood.

In addition, a toll road from the west may not be the best way for everyone to get to the hospital neighborhood.

Dean, after you reread the article to see what predatory competition may do to the timing on the western centers that will help fulfill the countywide healthcare plan, you may wish to check with some of the western mayors: you and I were both at the BoS input session in which your own Mayor Walker of Lovettsville spoke in support of a Route 50 hospital. I recall that you once threatened to run against her if you "had to" on the L2Day forum, because no one in Lovettsville (you, the Imperial We) wanted a high school and she had no business meeting with anybody who said they did.

Granted, you and Glenn may have missed her remarks of support, while you were yukking it up in the back preparatory to the tag team of what you had "discovered" was happening in Broadlands. It had come to your attention and you "had proof", and it was the same lies about Donna Fortier that Glenn recycles for fresh meat every few months.

The posse rides again.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 7:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Barb-
There is no bigger "predator" in Northern Virginia than Inova. This is a well documented fact.
If not for the fear of competition, there would be no western healthcare facilities or ANY proposal for a Rte 50 hospital. You can thank the BRMC proposal for bringing these about.

Posted by shevco (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Cliff, shall we then thank HCA when the BoS approves this land use application for a campaign contributor, if the western centers are delayed by placing the only competition in such close proximity to the only provider? That would seem to be in line with predation.

Unless you are suggesting that HCA will then fulfill those aspects of the Comp Plan.

But that would seem to be in contravention of Glenn's argument that the only place it makes financial sense to put healthcare is where two rescue squads are based in Ashburn.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Barabara, as expected you'll never accept data as data, and I expected you to continue to throw other parameters on the facts. In reality, the information is for others to judge. I'll stand on the numbers, rather than address the defensive vectors you throw. Most others will too. (opinion)
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Go do your own FOIA or get a copy of this one if you want to attack it. The you can base your analysis on merits, rather than conjecture. (advice)
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Cliff, you are absolutely right! Inova is a predator for all of Northern Virginia. This is not only about little ole Loudoun and competition, it's about competition in the entire region. (opinion)
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Did you see Inova's statement that they are only meeting 50% of the healthcare needs in Loudoun. That 50% of Loudoun goes outside the County for care. All this from their CEO. (fact)

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Barb-
Please don't even begin to trot out indignation with campaign contributers. Steve Snow broke the mold on that one!

Posted by shevco (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 1:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, recall that you introduced just enough data to change the subject from the fact that even though HCA has filed a form for more than one extension of their COPN, they have yet to be able to check the box that says they have their land use, and have never checked the box that says they'd like to move to an appropriate site.

All you have introduced since is the breakout on BLS vs ALS for the companies you reference. Two sites in Ashburn are what percentage of all county calls?

I don't think one statistic is all I need, but it is apparently all you are willing to deal with in order to flog your current talking point.

Kind of like your beds-per-thousand argument: if they are apportioned by planning district, it can be misleading to quote by local jurisdiction.

Or like the argument that hospitals are that close together--in local jurisdictions with much higher population density than Loudoun.

I was hoping it would be an actual discussion Glenn, but you're holding true to form. The subject was changed, and now I can believe you and drop it, or go FOIA it myself like your little birdie (HCA?) did.

By the way, how much of that 50% goes to Winchester, Warrenton, Prince William? Again, the question isn't whether Broadlands is close enough for the rest of the county, but whether Lansdowne is.

And none of it will matter to you, because you will be between the only two hospitals in Loudoun.

Is your goal really to have all Loudoun residents receive healthcare in county?

How does placing both hospitals in such close proximity accomplish that?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Cliff, it is hypocrisy of the first order for anyone on this board to do a deal for this contributor--not that they won't, but after the noise they made they should be embarrassed, and York should recuse.

Snow isn't on the Board any more, remember? He isn't under indictment, either.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hahaha, I change the subject?!?!? If I do, I am a neophyte when it comes to you the master of diversion. (opinion)
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You can bollix up these numbers all you want and try to make it "my fault" in an act of hopeful diversion, but it doesn't change the data. The data reflects reality. (fact)
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Ha ha, again with the "little birdie" must be HCA. You can try and discredit the data all you want with your contrived inference, but the data is the Counties and it was FOIAed by a private citizen. This citizen forwarded all the data to the BOS and PC. I am sure you have the connections chase it down yourself. HCA had nothing to do with it. (fact)
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I know that frustrates the hell out of you. (opinion)

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, Glenn you do change the subject. I'm trying to stick with what you changed it TO, with little luck.

How can I bollix up one partial set of numbers?

The portion of data that you presented (as the first set of a lot of data you were going to review) only compares Ashburn to South Riding/Stone Ridge, with a breakout by basic and advanced life support after a week of no further data.

You inferred that all the Ashburn ALS is cardiac, with no substantiation, and claimed this "proves" that the only place for a second hospital is in Ashburn.

You initially referenced my questions as good, regarding what is in the call zone of the companies you referenced. No further word there.

Yes, I can get the FOIA. I thought you were going to post more, because you said you were.

Glenn, the only frustrating thing about dealing with you is the gameplaying you bring to nearly every discussion. It's hard to treat you seriously, but I try.

I repeat: if the only data you are going to present is Ashburn vs South Riding, you have no argument that correlates to your "50% of the population goes outside the county for healthcare!" You think another hospital in the same general area will cure that?

What percentage of the total county volume is made up of the two sets of localized figures you seem to think reflect finite reality?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 10:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ahhh, Barbara. I'll tell you what, I'll talk to the little birdie, and see if he/she/it (the "it" is for your entertain) can update this information, to include recent months. As we approach decision time it should be updated anyway. After the update, I'll ask the little birdie, if I can release the entire report to you. Then you can do with it what you will, and leave me be. I am not your statistician. Would you care to share in the expense of an updated FOIA?

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 11:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Barbara one last thing, I didn't say, "50% of the population goes outside the county for healthcare!", Mr. Kelley did, the CEO of Inova. (fact)
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And yes, I think a hospital in Broadlands will cure that. I will guarantee you, Mr. Kelley thinks the only cure to this health care migration is another Inova hospital and not a HCA hospital.
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You should consider HCA's model it is all about a feeder system to the mother ship. This will explain Mr. Kelley's embrace of the virtues of citizens leaving Loudoun for health care. The mother ship is Fairfax Hospital, and to a lesser degree Fair Oaks. They want Loudoun to sit here as nothing more than a portal to health care that is deep inside Fairfax. They have no interest in duplicating services in Loudoun. They need to feed the monster.
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The monster is their cardio center in Fairfax. The threat to that money line is health care advancements. Advancements in treatment and prevention that will draw down the need that Fairfax Inova is currently serving. It is undisputable, there will be less need for major heart surgery such as that provided by Fairfax. The need for by pass surgery will demise with advancements in treatment and care. This presents a huge threat to one of their major revenue sources.
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By the way, I do not make this observation in a derogatory fashion. Frankly, if a family member needed cardio care now I'd be the first to drive them to Fairfax. But I ask you to think about the treatment advances that are being made and how it will eventually cannibalized the current need for Fairfax Cardio. It's thoughts like this that provide insight into the monopoly goals of Inova and bizarre comments like those made by Mr. Kelley.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 11:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"Did you see Inova's statement that they are only meeting 50% of the healthcare needs in Loudoun. That 50% of Loudoun goes outside the County for care. All this from their CEO. (fact)

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 15, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)"

Glenn, it seems the direct quote is your wording of the fact, so it appears that is exactly what you said.

As for feeding the monster, I've been doing some reading and it appears that was HCA's (then Columbia's) model in Arlington.

The joint venture they entered into with the community hospital there included another Columbia-HCA hospital along with their Reston flagship. That was Dominion, which was later closed by HCA. (Those are the beds it is seeking to move here.) It appears Arlington Hospital dissolved the venture, which may have been about the time of the Medicare judgment against HCA. Arlington lost Dominion, but at least they didn't lose their community hospital as well.

I can certainly see Inova/Loudoun's desire to protect itself from seemingly predatory competition (due to the placement of BRMC), which can then be construed as desire for monopoly by HCA supporters.

However, if the placement goes through and the HCA monster feeds (your model, not mine), it could equally be construed by Inova supporters that HCA's desire is to supplant the only current provider in the interests of establishing their own monopoly.

Regardless, this does not address the fact that at any time HCA was renewing their COPN, they could have requested a site change, and maybe even have had a second hospital open by now.

And that IS the goal, isn't it?

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 17, 2008 at 11:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Barbara only can take what some say is an 85% regional monopoly on healthcare by Inova and turn it upside down. So you think the BRMC is going to turn HCA into a monopoly? Man, talk about a lack of facts, that seems like a lot of hooey to me. But you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I think you'll have a better chance trying to push a York conspiracy strategy.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 17, 2008 at 10:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, as I said, for you to claim the high ground of fact is entertaining.

If placing the only other hospital in Loudoun near enough to the only existing one ends up providing predatory instead of healthy competition, then yes, the end result (and perhaps an understandably desired one by the for-profit entity) could be a for-profit monopoly. That's the way competitive business works, right?

As for your opinion that I have a "York conspiracy theory", it remains a fact that Mr. York has had support from both HCA and some of its employees for more than one election cycle. It remains a fact that Mr. York campaigned heavily on "taking back Loudoun" from people who made land use decisions for contributors (and no FBI indictments in sight). It remains a fact that Mr. York campaigned on ethics, which discussion under the old and the new board included recusing oneself from land use decisions for contributors.

That's not a conspiracy Glenn, it's another history lesson.

If he actually stands behind his campaign rhetoric, he should recuse himself from any involvement in this application.

Especially after sitting in on the Cameron Chase meetings while he worked for ServiStar. Which he didn't stop doing until the County Attorney told him to.

Also fact.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 18, 2008 at 10:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Barbara, it is a conspiracy theory unless you can point out abuse of power associated with the so called campaign contributions. York has been a long time supporter of BRMC, how in the world do you think a donation in the last campaign has effected his position. In your theory the donation changed his vote from being in support to being in support. No cause and effect. No air in that balloon, just like their was no air in the bogus claims about Cameron Chase.
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Ask Mann about that. She has spent an enormous amount of money, expended an unbelievable amount of energy, and wasted numerous county resources trying to get any proof that York was at fault with Cameron Chase. All for naught, to include a fizzled court effort. That's enough investigation for me. It certain was enough for the voters who put him back into office.
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I will give you this Ms. Mann may eclipse your intrigue with conspiracies.

Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on April 18, 2008 at 3:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, you're putting words in my mouth again.

Having accepted the contributions for years now, and having campaigned against voting on issues involving contributors, he has no business voting on this issue.

It is a matter of record that the County Attorney advised Mr. York to stop attending development meetings between county staff and his employer. That is not a "bogus claim", it is a FACT.

Posted by BarbaraMunsey (anonymous) on April 18, 2008 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Glenn, no fizzled court action. The only FOIA suits I brought, I won. Still have a trial pending against Ms. Waters... who redacted parts of public documents--guess she found them embarrassing, that will be brought forward soon. I have a reprisal lawsuit against Burton, personally, that will be brought soon.

I don't know what you are talking about spending any enormous amount of money investigating any conspiriacies? I did file some FOIA lawsuits. (Judge Horne said the County fees for the YORK FOIA's were excessive and I did not have to pay them.) He told the county attorney that FOIA is not supposed to be adversary--you ask for docs, you get docs. I did not spend a lot of time, on those, which are just forms you file with the court then you get a hearing (mine lasted 3 hours.)

I did spend a lot of time on my own Ag district litigation, which I did pro se. The county spent about a half million dollars on outside attorneys fees and other costs (according to FOIA's) trying to delay me from going forward with a small family subdivision on ten acres next to an elementary school and a town, claiming I was somehow hurting the ag district, which on its face had expired, is supposed to be voluntary, and had provisions for subdivision which the county denied me to take advantage of... oh and forgot to mention, that I was an heir and heirs have a right to withdraw from ag districts...but the county punitively made up new laws and excuses just to intentionally hurt me, after I did everything they asked me to do, including drilling wells. This is how the taxpayers' money is being wasted...half a million dollars just playing games with a development application for a few lots, on the border of a town, where the development even comports with the down zoning regulations... it is called stupid, abuse of power, and government waste. Guess Scott York did not like me asking about Cameron Chase, huh?

Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on April 21, 2008 at 9:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)