Living in LoCo
Homeless Debate Continues with GSA Response & Petition
Tammi Marcoullier at 7:30 p.m., October 29, 2007 (76 comments)
UPDATE: The GSA is removing the "drop-in" services from the Ashburn Road thrift store and offices. Read the full story and details.
The debate continues over the Good Shepherd Alliance facility in Ashburn which is under construction and slated to provide services for the homeless, along with operating a thrift store and housing the organization's offices. Executive director Lyle Werner, the GSA board, and supporters have responded to their detractors in the community.
In a letter posted on its web site, and also sent to individuals who have taken the time to contact them, the organization provides information to address rumors about what this facility will be and whether the group made the right people aware of the full scope of plans prior to ground-breaking last week.
Additional details are also provided within the text of the GSA petition to "Save Our Site."
A few points:
Rumor: Homeless people will be living in this facility. Fact: This is not an overnight shelter that will house people. It is a business office with services that include providing food, showers and business equipment to people in need.
Rumor: People will bused in for services. Fact: There will be a public bus stop in front of the center as part of a county-wide transportation system. According to Werner, there is currently a stop about a block away.
Rumor: Details of this project were not disclosed to nearby homeowner associations, the Board of Supervisors or the general public. Fact: There is on-record information for the county that the GSA met with the Board of Supervisors. There are also numerous emails from Broad Run Supervisor Lori Waters from earlier this year explaining the specific functions of the facility to constituents. Waters now appears oppose it.
Supporters are quick to point out that local newspapers have been covering the opening of the facility since early summer, like this article from the Loudoun Times-Mirror and the Connection newspaper.
Heated discussion continues on the Broadlands message boards and a Yahoo! groups site dedicated to Old Ashburn. Residents are mobilizing for Thursday night's community meeting about this issue which begins at 6:30 p.m. at Ashburn Elementary School.
One thing I've learned from talking with so many residents is that people have varying images of "homeless" in their minds when they react to the news of having a facility that will help homeless people. Some picture vagabond, unkempt, hairy men with bags of belongings camping out on trails. Others know that the homeless include families who have lost their homes and/or jobs and are staying with relatives or friends. According to Werner, many homeless even have jobs, but struggle to make ends meet with low-wages in a high-cost of living area such as Loudoun.
The idea of helping "criminals" is also a hot-button issue with the GSA facility. Unless you have done a background check, you have no idea that the person working on your car, bagging your groceries, digging that ditch, mowing your lawn, or serving you food in a restaurant is not someone who served time in jail.
Some statistics from the GSA:
In 2006, the GSA served 351 needy men, women and children; in 1998, that number was 190; they provided almost 15,000 bed nights in 2006, compared to about 8,000 in 1998; and in 2006 the GSA provided over 36,000 meals to hungry families and children, compared to over 20,000 in 1998.
In 2006, the GSA had to turn back onto the streets a total of 536 people, including turning away 176 needy women and 183 destitute children...and turnaways for both women and children have skyrocketed so far in 2007
Since this blog gave full space to the detractors of the GSA facility last week, here is the full text of the letter from Joy Trickett (Board Chairman) and Lyle Werner (Executive Director) of the Good Shepherd Alliance in response:
The past week has witnessed much email traffic and discussion about our facility being built in Ashburn. We feel compelled to write to you and ask for your immediate understanding, help, guidance and prayers. It's time to match the misinformation that is circulating with the facts and with a balanced viewpoint.
There are two basic claims that are being made that we feel compelled to immediately dispel: the notion that this will be an overnight shelter or drop-in center; and the idea that the facility's plan and building has been kept under wraps.
First of all, the building in Ashburn will be a facility, not a shelter. To repeat: it will not be a shelter, nor was it ever planned to be one. The office hours of operation will be 9am to 5pm. It will not be a daytime drop-in facility either, but it will - when needed - serve families and women in supervised visits with information and counseling about housing issues in Loudoun. It will remain simply an administrative office and a thrift store. Because the drop in center capability is still sorely needed in the County, we are in active conversations with County officials as to how the critical need for the drop-in center can continue at a different location - and we're very hopeful that the County will be supportive and will cooperate and manage this as necessary.
Second, members of the GSA began outreach to the Ashburn community about this facility - and media coverage took place - in the spring of 2007. We have spoken to - and met with - the Board of Supervisors - including Supervisor Lori Waters and members of the County government - many times. We have notified local HOAs in the area. We have met with citizens. We received a public easement from Ashburn Village. We have applied for, and received all the proper permits and zoning from the County. We applied for and received site plan approval with the County. And we have met with (and prayed with) no fewer than nine pastors in Ashburn to make them aware of our plans. As a non-profit with very limited resources and time, we've worked very hard to be open, transparent, straightforward, and truthful.
The GSA is the largest and oldest provider of services to the homeless in the County. It has a 24-year old track record of successfully, responsibly, and compassionately caring for those who need shelter in our community. And we have a record that shows care and concern for the overall safety of others living in our community as well. We have a lot to say about the facility and why its needed, as well as the overall issues of compassion, and planning smartly to serve the current and future needs of our society here in Loudoun. The GSA will address your questions and concerns in the coming week. We are hopeful that all Ashburn residents can help The Good Shepherd Alliance, Inc. succeed in completing our mission of helping families and women in need.
We look forward to your support, and to seeing you at a constructive and cooperative meeting on November 1st at 6:30pm at the Ashburn Elementary School.
In His Service,
Joy Trickett, Board Chairman, The Good Shepherd Alliance Lyle Werner, Executive Director, The Good Shepherd Alliance Telephone 703-433-2631
So far more than 400 people have signed the petition in opposition to the Ashburn Road facility. The GSA's "S.O.S" petition was launched today.
Previous coverage of this issue: Loudoun's Homeless? Some Say NIMBY! and Drop in Site for the Homeless Stirs Passions.
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The last shall be first and the first shall be last. God bless loudoun County!
Posted by Mark_Gunderman (anonymous) on October 29, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am just a regular woman out living my life in Nashville Tennessee. I don't have to worry about where I am going to sleep at night. I am not worried about my future and where I will end up.
I admit I have taken the big things in life for granted. Honestly I have never thought twice about maybe one day losing everything and not having a place to call home. It pains me to think that there are normal everyday people out there that have to worry about losing everything and not have a place to call home. It pains me to know that there are people out there that don't care about the less fortunate. They don't care that the families are out on the street with no where to go, no food to eat, and no place to call home. There are children that have no place to sleep, no food to eat and no place to call home. To me it is a shame that there are people out there that don't care and don't want to help the less fortunate. If only they knew how it feels to not have a place to call home.
Instead of a community pulling together to help others, they have formed a hatred towards a safe haven that will rebuild peoples lives. These people are too concerned about their property values decreasing. Now tell me is that what life is all about? I just hope that one day they will be able to see what life is about and ask forgiveness for their actions.
Errin Werner
Posted by sweeterrin (anonymous) on October 29, 2007 at 11:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We have the Lamb Center in Fairfax City and to let you know there was no problem with home value nor was there a crime issue in regards to the lamb center. I also question the location of the new center not because of the fear mongering but if it will be assessable enough for the people that need it. I will leave that up to the people of GSA to decide. I live in Ashburn Farms now and have no second thought that this will not be a negative addition to our neighborhood. If the main purpose of this place is to help people who need it then all the power to them. I do have a question. Will the thrift shop accept donations?
Posted by ed (anonymous) on October 30, 2007 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sooo...how can I donate to this worthy cause???
Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on October 30, 2007 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
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Posted by salmann (anonymous) on October 30, 2007 at 9:41 p.m.
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Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on October 30, 2007 at 11:49 p.m.
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Posted by stephen (anonymous) on October 30, 2007 at 11:55 p.m.
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Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 5:51 a.m.
May I suggest this blog sticks to the facts and not be used as a political blog to negativly campaign
Posted by smoore333 (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 7:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Lets just shut her out. She comments, we ignore. I have a feeling she'll stop posting after the election. I wonder if her "people" have any idea how much damage she is doing for them. I have only so much tolerance for this and, if I was on the fence, would be apt to vote the other way as a result of these rants.
Posted by qazwsxedcrfv (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 7:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
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Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 12:30 p.m.
I am very disturbed that the debate about GSA and the concerns were not openly dealth with back in the summer. Lori Waters was directly involved in the discussion amongst several groups and individuals back in June and July. Why was there no solutions offered back in the summer? Why did this fester without attention until two weeks ago? What changed the level of interest from back then until now? Unfortunately, what we have now is an extremely ugly situation with a massive amount of hatred being poured out into the community. The homeless have a need and GSA is a part of the solution. GSA also must be held accountable for how they meet that need while being good neighbors. Frankly, emotions and politics are clouding judgment(s). Consequently, I am concerned about our communities reputation, the reputation of GSA and our county leadership. Our Supervisors have a responsibility to make sure politics and emotions do not dominate debate about these serious needs and missions. Lori Waters should have brokered this discussion back in the summer when she knew about it. That was the time to deal with this issue, not now when viciousness is surrounding dialog.
Posted by maravetz (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maravetz, you have Lori Waters' phone number - have you talked to her directly about this? Do you know that she has been outright lied to on several occassions? You know exactly who is fanning the flames of dissension, and it isn't Lori Waters. What Lori Waters knew about in the summer and what she knows now are two different things. Also remember that absolute political enemies of Lori Waters are on the GSA Board of Directors. This is all just too convenient of a controversy two weeks out from the election. Sure GSA does wonderful things for the community, but they need to be honest and upfront with their neighbors.
Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Glenn,
I agree with you here. I have volunteered for Mary's House of Hope in Purcellville, and GSA could not be a more wonderful, caring, good neighbor. They do not lie, Mr. Wolinski. If you spent any time in any of their facilities you would feel the tremendous power of love, hope, faith and the presence of God. You should spend a half hour on the phone with Joy Trickett, and you would feel the power of her love and faith.
Thank you for speaking the truth, Glenn. God Bless you, your community and our County to give us the strength to do what is good and right.
Sally Mann
Posted by salmann (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 3:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you, Sally Mann, for staying on topic and being so civilized here.
Posted by stephen (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sally, the full story will come out. Just don't jump to conclusions too fast as you are apt to do. I am certain that GSA does wonderful things, but they must work within the law.
Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 3:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
This effort of some residents to restrict GSA's effort to do good for those less fortunate is a microcosm of the effort of some (typically the very well off) to very strictly limit the construction of homes in Loudoun County. People with perpetually full bellies and a warm place to sleep every night and the best schools in the country whine and complain that their home assessments have gone up so much (read they have made a fortune on thier home) and it takes them longer to get to their (six figure) job. With little shame they would keep the less fortunate from being able to own a home by keeping the housing inventory low. ((please do not respond that there are plenty of homes, there are simply a surplus of still very overpriced homes.)) Smart growth disproportionately harms blacks and other minorities but that topic is taboo for some and ignored by others.
The needy people that GSA seeks to help deserve our generous financial support and our freely given compassion. In the same way as most of us once came here from somewhere else and hoped to become a welcomed new neighbor, we should welcome the people who want to be our neighbors in Loudoun instead of clamoring for the government to cap the housing market and help make us more money. The person in need may one day be you and how much will you deserve the kindness of others?
It is amazing how the common thread is an apalling lack of compassion exhibited by selfish people.
Posted by WolinskisShadow (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jeff,
I have worked for GSA out here, and know them well. I am not jumping to any conclusions, but I know these folks, and it would be a huge political mistake on Ms. Waters or Mr. York's part to call them liars,,,
They are dedicated, hard working, 24/7 devoted to others less fortunate, prayerful, but not judgmental, encouraging and loving...a complete class act, that is humble and true. You will not convince me that they "lied" to anyone.
Posted by salmann (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Probably poor form to post twice, but I was in general district court again this morning on another FOIA issue, and there were two banks there, foreclosing on mortgages, and taking over homes. There were also several landlord tenant issues, where landlords were evicting tenants for not paying rent. Some really sad stories, where a husband was hurt, lost his job, medical expenses, divorce, good people who are being evicted/losing their homes--the landlords or banks cannot let them stay...this is becoming a big problem here in Loudoun--a lot of people are in big trouble.. the "homeless" person might be one of your neighbors...lots of foreclosures in Ashburn...
Posted by salmann (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 8:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey Sally...why don't you lay off the "you Ashburn people" schtick?
It get's pretty old and does little to endear yourself to us having to vote for your boy, Firetti. I don't see any "Ashburn people" slamming the west county. Give it a rest...
I just wish you weren't so persistent in exploiting what divides us vs. celebrating what binds us. Too much to hope for I guess.
I feel so sorry for you that you choose to look at your life through that distored lens.
I'll keep you in my prayers. You could use every one, from where I stand.
Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on October 31, 2007 at 8:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Cer10death,
Your moniker is so angry and so is your message. I am so sorry. I do think the folks in Ashburn have not been well served by Ms. Waters, or Mr. York with respect to several important zoning issues...all under the radar...
I believe in open and honest government, and I don't think GSA has lied about anything...
Prayer is good! We all need discernment of Christ's will for us....I believe, there is a reason that this has come up, a reason for the community to come together now, and a miracle is going to come out of all of this angst! I have seen too many miracles already with GSA not to believe!
Posted by salmann (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The Broad Run District is fortunate to have two very competent and intelligent women (Lori Waters and Phyllis Randall) running for the BOS. I'm confident that the voters who actually live in this district are capable of figuring out for themselves who can represent them best.
This issue has become so emotionally and politically charged; the timing is suspect, and the never-ending stream of accusations (Lori Waters hates homeless people, GSA members hate Lori Waters, Ms. Waters is inciting the Ashburn residents to protest the center, Ms. Waters was lied to, etc.) means that this election will end on a rather ugly note. Too bad. We deserved better.
It is my belief that the voters are smart enough to see the GSA center as but one issue out of many that affect their daily lives.
Posted by jleete (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 9:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree that this issue has become unfortunately a negative lightning rod, but that blame rests squarely on the shoulders of Jack Ryan and his band of fools. They think they can stir this pot up to damage Waters, and apparently are doing a good job of it. However, as with everything else that gang has tried, it will certainly backfire on them. How interesting indeed that one of Jack Ryan's biggest supporters, Bob Onheiser, is on the GSA Board. The timing of all of this is highly suspect.
Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 10:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Highly suspect.
Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 11:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jeffwolinski,
Highly suspect?? What would GSA gain? Didn't GSA already have approval to proceed? GSA didn't need approval from the BOS, so what would they gain by backdooring Ms. Waters. GSA said they were consolidating their Leesburg and Sterling facilities into the Ashburn location. "Good Shepherd currently offers daytime drop-in services for the homeless at its administrative office on Sycolin Road in Leesburg", so was there any reason to believe that the Ashburn facility wouldn't have a drop-in service? Furthermore, Ms. Waters has never publicly stated that she had been misled by GSA. Are you implying that a worthy organization like GSA would resort to political backdooring?
Posted by yind2b (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The highly suspect phrase was not in reference to GSA itself, but to the last minute uproar about this, which I lay totally at the feet of Jack Ryan and his lying, bullying associates. Dave Olson, who called me at 1:09 AM back during the LCRC convention battle, did most of the talking for poor Jack at the last meeting about this. I don't have all the details, I urge anyone looking for such details to attend the meeting tonight. One thing is for certain, I for one believe GSA to be a worhty organization, but apparently they have had some issues with their other locations that need to be addressed at this new location. Even though it is a worthy and needed facility, they absolutely must work cooperatively with their new neighbors.
Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ms. Mann. My screen name is simply a recognition that we all face the same fate...certain death. There is no anger and those that know me, know that-above all else- I am a realist. I try to live everyday to the fullest because certain death awaits. No one knows when...but it's there.
As for you...I believe you could politicize the toilet tissue hanging in my bathroom. Is it Republican or Democrat? Did it vote for Lori Walters or Firetti or Steve Snow?
Actually...there is a universal truth in that bleached white paper and the those who prostrate themselves to a political agenda and party affliation...they both end up with stinking brown effluent on them eventually. Then they get cast aside and flushed once they are no longer useful to their political masters.
Hah...see...I just made myself crack up!
Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on November 1, 2007 at 7:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Your posts are boiling with anger and hatred for anyone who disagrees with you.. "stinking brown affluent" is not an angry remark? Take a deep breath! We are all good people, and if we can discuss things civilly, then a good result will occur!
Posted by salmann (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Always the politician. Thanks for the humor! I enjoy a good laugh.
Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
salmann, have you been reborn or are you back on your meds? I must say it's a very pleasant change. Thank you for trying!
Posted by stephen (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I forgive Mr. Wolinski for his attempt to smear my name. A little more concern for others would stand in good stead here. I do agree with Maravetz' assessment that Supervisor Waters is the one who dropped the ball. She knew of the project six months ago. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would realize that any organization who deals with the homeless could have problems moving into a suburban community without a lot of effort to make the way smooth. Ms. Waters is a politican who should understand public response and could have headed off this entire problem. I really put this entire problem at her feet. Then, for her to schedule a meeting four days before an election so as to curry favor with the crowd is playing blatant politics with the lives of some of our most helpless. Shame on her.
Posted by dave.olson (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 4:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Salmann I agree with you about Wolinski and anyone who has every read one of his posting here or anywhere else can see the anger and hatred he has for people that disagree with him. The GSA are very good people doing great things for our community and those that live here, but Ms Waters put them and the people of Ashburn in a horrible position by not addressing this back in June when she knew about it. Her lack of leadership is disgraceful
Posted by nancymsk (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Anger and hatred?
May I ask, Nancy, what is it exactly that we're disagreeing about?
I believe that Ms. Mann posted several items on this blog with the entries such as "You Ashburn people" and "you people in Ashburn". Those sound like pretty divisive words to me? I simply called her on it and all of a sudden, I'm dealt invective from you and her.
I am an Ashburn person...and I'd be lying to you if I didn't say that yours and Sally's postings clear point out that you're not from Ashburn. So...I'm having a hard time wondering...why is what happens in Ashburn any of your business? I have the answer...it's because Ms. Mann takes every chance to advance her political agenda. She wraps everything into a poltical consipracy.
That was the exception I took and will continue to take with Ms. Mann's postings, ravings and other opinions on this subject.
It wasn't until the last two posts, that she's taken the high road. Sorry, I'm not buying it...medicated or not.
The facility is not about her politics or anyone else's. There's nothing horriable about any of this. It seems only you and Ms. Mann see it through that lens.
Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Cer10death are you Wolinski! I am not wrapping anything into a political conspiracy! What is up with attacking me? I really am just a mom, with opinions... and I have volunteered some for GSA, and think they are super.. Do you know any of the GSA folks or have you got any experience with their facilities? You should check them out!
Posted by salmann (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
cer10death - if living in Ashburn is a requirement here, Wolinski lives in Lovettesville, just off the Berlin Pike - that is nowhere near Ashburn.
Posted by dave.olson (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 5:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
cer10death For the record I do live in Ashburn but just like dave.olson is that a requirement here? and you think your on first name basis............
Posted by nancymsk (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 9:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
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Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on November 2, 2007 at 11:53 p.m.
LOL...
Not worth the bandwidth to respond. Enjoy your lives.
Posted by cer10death (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 6:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
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Posted by salmann (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 10:04 a.m.
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Posted by stephen (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 10:34 a.m.
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Posted by honchonumberone (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 11:47 a.m.
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Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 12:28 p.m.
I'll be quite clear. I will not vote for Lori because a number of her votes and positions appear to be crafted to her supporters and not to the citizens of the Broad Run District. #1. She proposed a bond issue for road construction that must be paid off by the citizens - she could have had that money from the developers. #2. She is interested in smart growth, which among other things means to consolidate growth in specified areas, leaving other areas less developed. She cut condominiums from Landsowne (her home) and One Loudoun. Condos do not produce as many kids, and what she did was to reduce the vibrancy of those two town centers. All of that seems to be at the behest of her "no-growth at any cost" supporters, and ends up costing the Broad Run residents. #3. She has backed the county out of some projects leaving those projects to be developed by right with no supporting infrastructure paid by the developers. #4. Now she has let the entire GSA project fester, when she as the politician should have understood the potential for a public outcry. I am not bitter, nor do I dislike Ms. Waters. My assessment is that she is incompetent, which is what one would expect when a politican with no meaningful experience is elected.
Posted by dave.olson (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 12:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
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Posted by dave.olson (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 12:54 p.m.
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Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on November 3, 2007 at 1:34 p.m.
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Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on November 4, 2007 at 1:43 p.m.
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Posted by qazwsxedcrfv (anonymous) on November 4, 2007 at 2:20 p.m.
Even though I was part of the mass deletion, I applaud the decision of the site staff to strike the flame war from this site. To respond to Dave Olson's last comment above: 1) that bond issue was approved overwhelmingly by the voters, not Lori Waters. If you are pushing a candidate, it really isn't wise to rail against the will of the voters. 2) it is undeniable that our rapid rate of growth has negatively impacted every citizens' taxes. Smart growth and limiting development are smart fiscally conservative ideas. Lori Waters, nor any other smart growth advocate I know, is for no growth at all. 3) This is just flat out wrong and deceitful. Rezoning proffers only pay for the ADDITIONAL infrastructure needs of the proposed EXTRA houses. The by right infrastructure needs are still provided by the county (taxpayers) and the long-term operating costs for schools (3/4 of our budget) and other public needs are never met by the developer. 4) She absolutely did not let the GSA project fester, this was a manufactured crisis of the political Forces of Darkness operating in Broad Run. Lori Waters is absolutely competent and not beholden to any special interest.
Posted by jeffwolinski (anonymous) on November 5, 2007 at 9:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I too applaud the deletions. I think the editors should have taken more prompt action though, so that responses were not required.
Posted by MANN12 (anonymous) on November 5, 2007 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You having been one of, if not the, most vociferous posters here, salmann, I find it disingenuous and Janus-faced to now hear you applauding the editor's actions to quiet the thread and return it to civility. Really! How hypocritical!
Posted by stephen (anonymous) on November 8, 2007 at 11:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
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